#and re: predathos... i think at this point we need to figure out WHAT predathos is before jumping to any conclusions

[cringefaecompilation]

Truly still seeing takes in December of 2024 of “Imogen will betray the party once she gets near Predathos and Laudna will go with her” is wild… like it would be simpler to say you stopped watching in 2022 and you’ve gotten all your information on this campaign from Reddit since episode 27.

i've gotten four other messages similar to this one with very specific wording (redditors that stopped watching the show as soon as laudna came back or right before it) that i really didn't know how to response to with anything other than "i agree" buuuuut since you mention it!

there is this sort of uneven treatment with most laudna and imogen haters that acts as if imogen is falling further and further into darkness from what's been going on and laudna... hasn't changed at all, somehow. she was just this bad all along and now revealing her true colors. because that's what a shocking amount of people took away from the bor'dor incident.

and likewise, a good chunk of fans assumed that marisha's plan since day 1 was to make her a delilah boss fight and close out the campaign with the first ever permanent pc pvp death. so upon her sealing delilah away both times, those fans concluded she was now a redundant, pointless character and that cr hastily made laudna a "boring" and "safe" lesbian to appease the marisha/laura shippers.

granted, the whole "they're gonna turn on the team!" accusations have hit everyone in this campaign hard, but for the guys is usually for angst purposes rather than "i hope xyz dude gets killed by my favorite character!". while i have seen some of these with outright hatred for the men, it's still like, only ever after wading through twelve anti-imogen rants

it WAS from a reddit crosspost i saw one of the first "c3 is bad for having an anti-god message" takes which was "off camera, ashton and laudna PROBABLY prayed to gods, so it's stupid to say that they never needed them or don't have any interest in saving them!". this was around... i wanna say episode 48-49, right before the solstice and party split. so if most reddit fans are still 70 fucking episodes behind in their character analysis, yikes.

(also that argument doesn't even make any sense. you could say any character probably did something off screen that accounts for the lore. me saying chetney's favorite food is probably ravioli because the mn were in wildemount and invented it when he was there holds about as much weight as that comment.)

[onlyherefortheshowmances]

I haven't wanted to be part of the discourse(tm) that has been everywhere for the past couple weeks, but I do want to put somewhere my theories of what happens next, with where we stand now. The following is just me using deductive reasoning/logic and what information we currently have available to see what might come after, including a statement on my thoughts regarding the discourse. I'm really not interested in debating any of this with anyone, so please just take this as my opinion and move on. Remember this world is FICTIONAL. The PLAYERS are real people, but the characters are not. I'm also going to throw out there that I am autistic as fuck, so it's 100% possible I'm misunderstanding the discourse entirely, but going off of what I've seen and read, here are my thoughts.

Discourse Related Statement:

I'm honestly a little confused why people are angry at Bells Hells (or moreso Imogen) for how they've handled this, because even the Matron understood that if they just re-sealed Predathos (which seems to be what you all wanted them to do), someone else was going to come along and release him (most likely Ludinus which would be even more chaotic). They're doing the best they can with what they've been given. Predathos is a god-level entity, there is no destroying him, only locking him away (like the betrayers and Vecna have been), and now that seemingly the whole of Exandria knows what he's capable of, SOMEONE is going to unseal him no matter how hard they were to try to seal him back up, so they need to figure out a way to CONTROL him instead of just sealing it back up and hoping no one else figures it out when they (a group of chaotic level 15 adventurers) just managed to free it, so clearly it's not that hard to do, now is it? Right now they have control of the timing instead of the world being surprised when someone else does it who knows how far in the future. Re-sealing is only putting off the inevitable which is like... my very least favorite thing people seem to love doing. So right now, while Predathos is weakened and therefore controlled within Imogen, the Gods actually have time to prepare for how to handle this as opposed to just indefinitely trying to keep it sealed away, when we all (or at least I) know that is very unlikely to be a permanent solution.

Now, predictions for the remaining part of campaign 3.

Bells Hells will (with some luck of the dice) talk their way into Vasselheim in effort to speak to the Gods (because there are temples to all or nearly all of the prime deities there which is likely to be there starting point for seeking out interface with them). The Matron clearly already knows their plan (or the part of their plan that they already discussed with her), so I think they'll maybe save her for last as they make their rounds. If they can manage to get all of the prime deities in one place, all the better, but I don't think that'll really be possible, so I think it'll be more like a few small groups going through their story and explaining what's going on. For her sake, it might be best if Imogen just stay on Exandria while they others go talk to the Gods (possibly even a divide and conquer strategy due to time), and that way the guards and celestials and such can keep their eyes on Imogen the whole time which I'm sure they would prefer anyway.

Each God will make their decision to either go through with the Matron's reworked ascension ritual to become mortal or to go on as they are and risk being devoured when the time comes.

A factor that I don't know if anyone else has actually considered is... I don't think the Gods will be telling the entire populace that they're going mortal, maybe they'll each tell a handful of their most trust high-level followers (champions, chosen, etc.), but swear them to secrecy. Because if the entire populace knows the gods now walk among them, someone like Ludinus is sure to find a way to let Predathos know that once Imogen no longer has control over it (which will happen when it regains its strength).

I'm honestly, still not quite sure what their plan is with the betrayers, though honestly, I'd just let them get eaten if it were up to me, but I know Braius would at least campaign to save Asmodeus. However, Vecna is another thing, because he is technically a God and sealed away, but I would really like to see them let Predathos at least eat him, because... we really don't need another round of THAT chaos.

As for the powers granted by the Gods to their followers (Clerics and Paladins and some Monks), that's a trickier question. I can say with almost certainty that things like Commune and Divine Intervention will no longer be possible as they won't be able to communicate directly with their God anymore. However, I don't think things like... items that were created by them will lose their power (i.e. the vestiges will still do what they do, etc.), and I'd like to think that powers that they've already imbued people will won't go away completely though their nature may change slightly (as I mentioned with the direct communication related spells) and I also think no one would be able to gain any additional levels in divine classes with the Gods being mortal because they won't be able to imbue NEW powers/gifts.

That's really where I'm at right now. I feel as though most if not all of the prime deities will agree to the mortal plan just for their own safety at this juncture and then while mortal they can work up plans for how to permanently solve this issue such as a more permanent and secure way to lock Predathos away or even destroy him between all of them working together. The betrayers are more of a question mark at this point (and as I said, I wouldn't mind seeing at least a few of them get eaten if we're being fair).

Now, another side note that has been clawing at my brain for several weeks is Keyleth's question of what would happen to Vax if there was no more Raven Queen. I'm of the opinion that she trusts him enough to tell him that she's going mortal (and possibly also the maidens of Ravens Crest including Lieve'tel). She will no longer be able to watch and pull at the strings of fate in a mortal form. I know Vax will be so confused and beg her to tell him what exactly to do in her absence (though not really absence so much as... different existence), but she's always been about letting people make choices for themselves, remember she took Vax as her champion BECAUSE he was willing to test the threads of fate to save his sister's life. She knows all of times Vox Machina has accomplished things that the fates really shouldn't've allowed, and yet, she still wants/wanted Vax as her champion, and I think that says something. I imagine he would, after a long discussion with her (which may be cut short by Imogen announcing that if the Raven Queen doesn't do the ritual right now she's gonna get eaten), decide that if she's going to be on Exandria, he should be, too, but in order to keep her new mortal identity from getting out to the masses (see previous notes about why I think that will be part of the plan), she will ask him to not just... follow her around all the time since he's incredibly recognizable and well known at this point, which will for the most part leave him to his own devices on Exandria other than I'm sure still helping departing souls if/when he sees them, and perhaps a few secret meetings with the Matron here and there.

So, I do think that maybe, just maybe, this solution may work out for the best for... pretty much everyone I'm most concerned about. Vax gets to stay on Exandria (in his new immortal celestial form that doesn't age at all - but he will need to take care not to get himself killed since the Matron won't be there to knit him back together while she's mortal) with Keyleth and his family and the rest of Vox Machina. Still knowing that the Matron is safe and that once there is a more permanent solution to the Predathos problem, he will once again be her champion as he's been for the past 30 years. The clerics and paladins will keep their current abilities for the most part, though lose their direct connection to their god(s) aside from the handful of most trusted champions and chosen that are entrusted with the details of what's happening. Predathos can live his best life eating the betrayers or just angrily flying across the planes in search of deities he can no longer see (until the deities in their mortal forms come together to find a more permanent solution - which I think that could be a good plot for campaign 4, tbh). And I think we're going to get more Luxon involvement judging by the Matron's comments in her recent discussion with Bells Hells.

[the-grey-hunt]

i've been feeling a little put off by the newer orym-laudna-ashton crew episodes, but it's a weird feeling that people in the fandom seem to share re: the whole godly plotline

as someone who is religious (polytheistic; i call it norse heathenry), the way Matt is approaching gods and sprinkling in smaller non-god divine spirits (such as the werewolf one that possessed chetney) is interesting, but i'm mixed on how the players are reacting to it. tbh i think they're just very culturally christian, but i wanna try and work out how i'm actually feeling about it all, though i've seen other, better meta posts on the subject

gonna put this under a cut because it's getting long

i think i'm mostly annoyed that the gods' followers are taken as the same thing as the gods doing a thing? i know in a d&d world these followers are literally getting magical power from their gods, and that certainly has to mean something, but at the same time, humans and other d&d sentient species have free will. that's the whole point of an improv game. the gods don't control their every action, and i would hope that the gods don't take your power away if you aren't a cleric/paladin in the One Approved Way there is to be a cleric or paladin.

i suppose that some of this relies on how matt sets stuff up (the mention of dawnfather *missionairies* really threw me, because that's a *very* christian concept), and partly how the players react. the players, who i assume are largely not very religious irl (idk about sam who's the only one i've heard discuss his religious background), tend to react like "well, that won't really affect me".

hang on, i've had a realization. i realized the main thing my brain is stuck on is we've listened to so, so many people talk about how the gods are bad, whether rural people who want to be left to their own worship or the "release predathos" gang, but we've had very few people who have a thorough, passionate, POSITIVE opinion of the gods. we haven't been presented with the option of the gods being good and helping. THAT'S why it feels weird. the players are ambivalent and only orym seems to remember that ludinus had to murder people to get away with his plan without people disagreeing with him, the guests are largely ambivalent about the gods (even deanna, which is fair), and matt has presented them with a lot of very strongly anti-god people.

it's not that any of these characters are wrong for their opinion. it's not that the gods *have* to be actually good and morally pure. it's that all these characters, NPC and PC, making the choices that seem right for them to make, have skipped over the part where they try to figure out what role the gods actually play in the world, be it the living world, afterlife, or basic function of the planet's biome (this post: X has a great take on that laid out more concisely than i could)

honestly, i think "are the gods good or bad" is reductive at best, but if i were at the table, i'd be asking things like "well, if the dawnfather gets eaten, does the sun go out, because we need that" or "if the raven queen gets eaten will there still be an afterlife"